Denon Engine vs Lexicon BPM and Beatgrid Analysis

[djjatoro]

Hi @Christiaan

I’d like to ask you what you honestly think about the accuracy and goodness of Lexicon’s BPM and Beatgrid analysis algorithm relative to Engine Prime’s algorithm.

On the other hand, I see that the value returned by Lexicon for the BPM tag does not match the value returned by Engine Prime. I think it would be interesting to incorporate the BPM value resulting from the analysis of Engine BPM (or even that of other applications that can be synchronized such as Traktor, Serato, Rekordbox, VDJ) into the columns, in order to compare them and modify the current value stored in BPM tag with the correct one or more optimal.

I don’t know if it would be a difficult job, also, to reflect the beatgrid that the Lexicon player shows, adjusted to each of the values from different apps named.

In summary, for the case that interests me, which is the application that I work: Engine Prime, I would like to ask the following question since I don’t know if it is currently possible:

If Lexicon’s analysis result is more satisfactory or correct than Engine Prime’s, when synchronizing,
the BPM value and therefore the beatgrid in Engine Prime is updated to be similar to that of Lexicon?

If not, do you plan to be able to import/synchronize beatgrids from other software with more precise analysis like Traktor into Lexicon, so that they can then be ported over to Engine Prime? or what I am talking about is a very complex task?

By the way, the style of music I usually work with is mainly from the 90’s and 2000’s. This means that many tracks have been ripped from vinyl and require a flexible beatgrid.

I already read in another post that you write about:

https://discuss.lexicondj.com/t/smart-playlists-beatgrids-lexicon-and-engine/125/3?u=djjatoro

However, for me it is quite usual. This is the reason why I mention above the possibility of importing both BPM and Grid from other applications (and be able to synchronize it with another), for example Traktor, as it is the most efficient application in the analysis.

Thanks. Regards.

[Christiaan]

I agree that Traktor has a better analyzer (probably the best one). You can already use those beatgrids and BPM by adding a track to Traktor and then importing a Traktor playlist while keeping the Merge option enabled.

I have plans to add a menu where you can choose exactly which fields to import, so you could add tracks to Traktor and choose to only import the beatgrids & BPM. Then LXC won’t overwrite the other fields. I think that would be the best approach. This is high on my todo list so it won’t take too long before that is added.

[djjatoro]

But…so…sorry, I don’t know if I understand you correctly, the above means that I can import an exact replica of my grids (with markers and all, flexible beatgrids) and bpm from traktor into Engine Prime, using Lexicon tool?

[Christiaan]

Yes you can already do that. You can add the tracks to Traktor directly and analyze there. Or you can export a playlist to Traktor, then analyze it in there and re-import back into Lexicon. Keep merge enabled.

[N.D.M]

@Christiaan You had the whole plan to create your own algorithm for waveform-analyse to base the whole bpm/beatgrid calculation/placement on right?

[Christiaan]

There is an analyzer in LXC already. Or I’m not sure what you mean otherwise

[N.D.M]

Meaning that’s your whole idea to have a solid analyzer in lxn to work on…

[djjatoro]

Hi @Christiaan

Excuse me, but I think that some of we two did not understand the idea well. My approach is not working correctly.

I’ll tell you what I’ve done:

1. I import my folder structure into Engine Prime. This creates the same structure for me, but with Playlists.
2. I confirm that there is one of the tracks that has not been correctly analyzed (look at picture).
   
   

I export (in this case to Rekordbox), since it has the Dynamic Grid option.
3) I analyze in Rekordbox the track in dynamic mode, which makes me an accurate analysis for my ripped vinyl. Capture attached.

3. Once the track has been analyzed, I import it back into LXC with merge mode enabled.
4. I export again to Engine Prime, but I don’t see the changes, as reflected in the same screenshot as before:
   
   

What could I have misunderstood? or what am I doing wrong?

Thanks in advance.

[Christiaan]

Are the multiple beatmarkers visible in Lexicon? After re-import from RB

[djjatoro]

No. They are visible as same as Engine DJ, out of phase, not aligned to the downbeat.

[Christiaan]

Can you try this:
Delete the beatgrid completely from that track in LXC
Then import with merge from RB
Check how the grid looks then. Is there a grid at all or is it the same misaligned again?

[djjatoro]

Hi @Christiaan

Sorry for the delay in answering.

When I change shifts at work, it is impossible for me to respond at the same moment.

Last night I tried what you told me and this time it appeared aligned at the beginning of the track, but after about 30 seconds or so it started to go out of alignment.

In Rekordbox the markers appear all aligned for the entire duration of the track.

I would like to upload the track for you to do the test. It’s a ripped vinyl from the 90’s that undoubtedly needs a dynamic analysis.

The problem is that I don’t know how to upload a file and that the link is hidden, to avoid copyright problems.

[Christiaan]

You can upload to me using this link.
The analysis comes from RB, so if I enable dynamic analysis and analyze this track, I should get the same, right?

[djjatoro]

Yes, you are right.

Here is the track:

Download

By the way, i am using Rekordbox 5.8.6

Thanks in advance. Have a nice day.

[Christiaan]

I will check it out soon, it’s on the list

[Christiaan]

Okay did some testing. First of all this is a beatshift affected track, so you have to run the Beatshift Correction utility (top menu bar) after the import from RB. Then it should start the first beat, same as RB.

Secondly, there was a limit of 100 beat markers (this track has 200+) so halfway the track, there was the last beat marker so from there you’d expect a drift. I have removed this limit in the next Lexicon release.

Over here, the results in Lexicon and Engine look as expected. So try the new release (1.0.1) and see if that improves the situation

[djjatoro]

Ok @Christiaan

Thanks again for your fast support and kind attention.

I’m looking forward to testing the changes and my pro plan subscription, but the app tells me there are no updates available.

I can not download Version 1.0.1 or update 1.0.0.

[Christiaan]

There is an update now, version 1.1.0.

[djjatoro]

Hi @Christiaan

Thanks for update. I just tested the new update and I can report the following:
Starting Point:
Pendrive with folder structure that includes tracks.
Rekordbox: A playlist tree structure with the tracks on the pendrive.
LXC: No playlist.
Pendrive without Engine DJ library.

Rekordbox playlist:

Process performed:

1. First I sync LXC with Rekordbox, importing the playlist structure. This is the result:
   

   

2. I apply the first time “beatshift correction”. This is the result (as you can see, the first time the BPM is modified):
   

   

3. I sync rekordbox with LXC again and the BPM is updated to its correct initial value.
   

   

4. The beat grid in LXC is perfectly aligned from the first to the last beat and is an exact replica of rekordbox.
   

   

5. Now I export my playlist to the pendrive in Engine DJ format. The result is as follows:
   As you can see, the waveforms are not loaded initialy (i think they must be appear, am i right?).
   When I load the KARNAK 2nd track, Engine DJ appears to analyze the track and show beatgrid correct, also a replica of rekordbox and LXC, but there comes a minute 4:28 when the markers stop appearing:

6. I test another tracks and Engine DJ seems to show different BPM value from LXC:
   
   

Engine DJ BPM = 138,16
Rekordbox BPM = LXC BPM = 138,10

I await your opinion. A warm greeting.

[Christiaan]

When you synced from LXC to Engine, did you lock the beatgrids (there is an option)? If they are not locked, then Engine will create a new beatgrid